Ground pounding torque

[theboostedsnail]

This is my buddy johnny's (78T/A) 1978 Pontiac Trans Am 400...its all original numbers matching...we are in the process of tearing it down but due to my turbo build and school its a slow process :( got the heads off turns out its been built and never fired lol...bored .30 over with new cam pistons and ported heads, what are the chances of that lol but im tryin to get him to get on here more lol but here is a preview of the car...its gonna be a monster :eek:

[SteamHammer]

one of my favorite Trans-Am body styles. nice car.

[Kevo]

Saw one @ the World of Wheels show yesterday...Smokey and the Bandit along with Snowman's 18-wheeler.

[theboostedsnail]

Was the one in atl the burt reynolds edition? And yea he picked it up cheap cause the guy got it off a guy who died while restoring it...guy thought it needd a motor so he let it go cheap lol...score for us lol. But its a solid car very small patches of rust but no serious spots expect it to be around town terrorizing ricers this summer

[Kevo]

Was the one in atl the burt reynolds edition? And yea he picked it up cheap cause the guy got it off a guy who died while restoring it...guy thought it needd a motor so he let it go cheap lol...score for us lol. But its a solid car very small patches of rust but no serious spots expect it to be around town terrorizing ricers this summer

Yeah, it was the black one with the fire-chicken on the hood. I got pics, just haven't had time to go through them all. What kind of output is he expecting out of the T/A? That thing has to be pretty heavy...

[BlazinAzian]

Ricers ain t never scared lol.

[78T/A]

Ricers will be scared when 406cubic inches of American muscle pulls up next to them ;)

[78T/A]

The car:first:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/070.jpg
Looks bad right?
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/059-1.jpg
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/060.jpg
Spark plugs never seen fire
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/069.jpg
And the inside
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/075.jpg
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/071.jpg
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/jnic66/072.jpg

[theboostedsnail]

yay he does kno how to long on here lol and he is expectin around 450 whp and 490 torque all motor and its not all that heavy lol ;) like 3600 lbs lol

[Discontained]

holy rustage batman

[theboostedsnail]

ha its a cast iron block its still solid lol the valley pan and accesory drives are gone though lol

[Filthy Dub]

cast iron block? really?

[78T/A]

yeah its from 78 they didnt have aluminum blocks back then

[theboostedsnail]

they did but they didnt go in t/a's lol

[Filthy Dub]

about to say, old GTI's had aluminum blocks :p

[theboostedsnail]

yea GTI...german engineering small c.i....american 400 is cast iron lol as is my block

[Filthy Dub]

And super heavy :lol:

[78T/A]

yes true...................but one side of my motor is still bigger than your whole motor :p there is no replacement for displacement :)

[theboostedsnail]

haha its ok man ill take my extra weight to be able to make alot more power :p

[BlazinAzian]

cast iron can take a beating. looks like you gonna have your work cut out for you.

[Filthy Dub]

True, but look at how well the little Lotus does against bigger engined cars...

[theboostedsnail]

thats def only because it weighs nothing lol...it has one of the best power to weight ratios out of any car period...not the atom though lol ariel atom FTW...but your cast blocks can take the high hp and boost alot better than most aluminum blocks...with the exception of them damn ls series lol

[Filthy Dub]

Ah, forgot about the Atom :D

[Kevo]

There is a replacement for displacement and it is called technology...I've seen n/a 4.6L DOHC make 400hp and it just has 281ci.

[78T/A]

There is a replacement for displacement and it is called technology...I've seen n/a 4.6L DOHC make 400hp and it just has 281ci.

I disagree. what if the same technology was put in say a 572 BBC it would be in the 800hp range...then that motor would make more horsepower than the 4.6... because there is no replacement for displacement. Period...

[theboostedsnail]

technology helps but hell look around there are many many 5.0s out there which are pushrod to the core lol no technology aids and they get them in the 500+ hp n/a...and look at the ls series by GM they stay true to pushrod and they dominate even the modulars of equal displacement n/a for n/a. Another thing is people argue that boost is a replacement but its not its an advantage if you take a 2.0L and turbo it on 15 psi and a 4.6 on 15 psi the larger motor wins because there is no replacement. And kevo i see where you are comin from but i mean think about it how much work is done to that mod 4.6 to get 400 hp and look at fords newly released 5.0 mod it makes 412 from the factory

[Kevo]

The new 5.0 has a lot of compression. It will not be blower friendly without low compression pistons with that in thought it will LOVE nitrous. Pushrod 5.0 have gotten more powerful because of the new technology that came in designing new heads/cams/intakes for them. I'm not saying technology is everything and possibly that statement I made above is wrong. All I'm saving is that you don't necessarily have to have lots of Cubic Inches to make a powerful motor. It is about the power to weight ratio...you need the loads of power for the classic as they are much heavier compared to CIVIC HB or like the Lotus mentioned before. Also getting 400hp N/A HP out of a 4.6 isn't that tough...just start off with the 3v instead of the 2v and you'll be in much better shape. Granted for the $$$ you will spend for the cams/long tubes/exhaust/intake/tune you would have been around the price of a nice blower setup! I like seeing variety in cars. Audi 4 door w/400awhp is damn impressive to me...plus still be very reliable.

[theboostedsnail]

o totally agreed power to weight is vital ;but believe me, i live with johnny (78t/a), and by no replacement for displacement he means just motor numbers not actual relative speed...and all cars can be made fast in that sense and it all comes down to money some cars, cough cough, 5.0s are cheaper to make a 10 sec car than any modular...but i respect any car i mean hell the thing you gotta remember is that there is always someone out there who is faster. But any car built right with the correct set up can be fast and the civic hb's are the perfect example they only need ~350 whp to get tens w/ good suspension while it takes cars like ours ~550 whp

[SteamHammer]

i agree with Kevo. the statement is true, a larger engine WILL create more power than a smaller one.....BUT! i've said it once and i'll say it again ( and again if needed ), power is not everything. "There's no replacement for displacement." is an old school phrase that is outdated. example: just because a 1969 Chevelle with a modded 454 with ~600hp doesn't mean it's faster than a 1984 RX-7 with a modded 13B with ~450hp. does it make more power...yes. is it faster...doubt it. genuinely, when people are at a track ( or in a parking lot :rolleyes: ) and are talking trash about whose car is better, they don't end the argument by hopping on a dyno. it's settled on the track ( or the street...illegally ).

[theboostedsnail]

o i agree entirely steamhammer i never argued that just cause my car has a bigger motor than yours that it is faster cause that is far from the truth lol...like you and your little swap is gonna be powerful and light thus extremtly fast lol...but IMO when i say no replacement for displacement i mean motor numbers lol...but sure you can have a civic HB on 30 psi and makin 450+ whp but with no suspension tires and the correct setup a little slightly modded n/a fox will kill it...but when you take all things into consideration its about puttin your bhp to the ground that makes you legitimately fast...

[SteamHammer]

yeah, .i didn't see your previous post when i went to reply for some reason :D .

[theboostedsnail]

ha its all good man lol its a personal opinion on what the saying means but i think between the last 4-5 posts we clarified any angle you can take on the subject :) mission accomplished

[78T/A]

I agree with everything said above basically what i was saying is you cannot replace displacement because you can take a 305 and build it with all forged internals and boost it 30lbs and spray it.... and it will make ALOT of power but if you did all that to like my 6.6 406 it would rape it cause the motor has more displacement.... Boost and Nitrous compensate for the lack of cubic inches but they will never replace it... PLUS torque is more fun anyway :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Filthy Dub]

Ha, agreed about torque :p but I'd have to agree with the statment "It doesn't matter how much power you have, if you can't put it on the ground, it doesnt mean anything" I hate to say it but there is such a thing as too much power if you can't put it to the ground. I've seen some 400+ GTI's that no longer have a 1st gear because all it does is spin tires...

[theboostedsnail]

yea thats cause they are FWD there are 1000+ whp mustangs and v8s that put it to the wheels with no problemo...there is no such thing as to much hp but there is such thing as having to much hp then you can put to the ground...thats a shame lol wasted hp and tq make me wanna :Cry:

[78T/A]

yes everything said above is true but thats what slicks are for :) and you need to be able to spin them to heat em up and its an intimidation factor.. its a matter of how heavy your foot is when you have that much H.P. and torque.. are you good enough to launch it fast without breaking loose... on a side note zero do you go to H.C. i think ive seen your car there before

[Filthy Dub]

Lol, thats what I meant Boosted, too much if your wasting it :D But ya I do, what car do you drive?

[theboostedsnail]

78T/A drives a 97 sierra on 11 inches of lift on 35x20 lol he dates a katelyn pawloski she goes to HC

[98dsm]

Well i do believe there is no replacement for displacement motor wise. I also agree that on the track depending on your class displacement doesn't matter. Now im not talking bout funny car racing. Big as motors do make more power but they don't rev high. Torque is important to a certain extent. Every seen a drag race when the car with more torque gets beat because it gets ran down at the end. Theres a huge difference between street and track racing. I say this because most imports race more than quarter mile.

I.E. look up brent rau. He has a 4g63 4 cylinder rwd with i think 1400 hp and he runs 6s in the quarter mile. Granted hes in a tube frame car john shepherd in his street car runs 7s on the same motor but he is awd. This proves technology makes a big difference in "replacement or displacement". Most big motors have almost more than that amount of hp and they don't run 6s. Some supras make more hp and don't run that time as well as other cars. Matter of fact brent rau had to add weight and drop turbo size because he was too damn fast.

Technology is something not every can grasp the concept of. Ever here "that anyone can build a v8 but it takes skill to build a 4 cyclinder". (Not to offend anyone) All in all i like all cars that are done right. I dont really like mustangs but boosted's car seems pretty damn nice. I love TA's also. But what i can't stand is people who add just intake and exhaust and pick on somebody under there class. If you a ricer don't race cars you know you have no chance against and then make excuses, and muscle guys don't race people slower than you. Race in your class and then talk smack.

Also you can't always transfer technology. Theres a reason some v8 have push rod. Ever seen a import with one. I haven't and if anyone finds one i would like to see it. At one time push rod was new technology but its dumb to put on a 4 cylinder. Most imports came dohc. How long did it take for everyone to adapt to that? Most cars where sohc or suhc. What about vtec, vvt, mivec? Don't see many of these on big motors. Granted there might be some but not many, hence technology can not be simply put what you do to a smaller engine can be done to big engine and make more power. It all comes down to how the motor is design because each one is different.

[BlazinAzian]

word

[Filthy Dub]

Well put ^

[Kevo]

Also you can't always transfer technology. Theres a reason some v8 have push rod. Ever seen a import with one. I haven't and if anyone finds one i would like to see it. At one time push rod was new technology but its dumb to put on a 4 cylinder. Most imports came dohc. How long did it take for everyone to adapt to that? Most cars where sohc or suhc. What about vtec, vvt, mivec? Don't see many of these on big motors. Granted there might be some but not many, hence technology can not be simply put what you do to a smaller engine can be done to big engine and make more power. It all comes down to how the motor is design because each one is different.

VTECH is popping up everywhere...Pretty much all cars are coming with some form of variable valve technology. Mustangs have also been SOHC and DOHC (Cobras) since '96. Then of course the coyote 5.0L DOHC will be here in 2011 in the GT making 400+hp. Most in the modular mustang world dream on the DOHC 5.4L swap out of a Navi or Lightning building for low compression and throwing some boost at it. It is a proven combo...Dodge has some form on VVT but not sure of the name on all the HEMIs, I can't speak for Chevys...Each motor is different is right, plus what you are going to be using it for reflects on how you build it. I love my 3V SOHC 4.6L...believe it is the best motor that has been put in GT in years. Guess I'll have to wait and see about the new 5.0L. This turned out to be quite a good discussion...

[98dsm]

VTECH is popping up everywhere...Pretty much all cars are coming with some form of variable valve technology. Mustangs have also been SOHC and DOHC (Cobras) since '96. Then of course the coyote 5.0L DOHC will be here in 2011 in the GT making 400+hp. Most in the modular mustang world dream on the DOHC 5.4L swap out of a Navi or Lightning building for low compression and throwing some boost at it. It is a proven combo...Dodge has some form on VVT but not sure of the name on all the HEMIs, I can't speak for Chevys...Each motor is different is right, plus what you are going to be using it for reflects on how you build it. I love my 3V SOHC 4.6L...believe it is the best motor that has been put in GT in years. Guess I'll have to wait and see about the new 5.0L. This turned out to be quite a good discussion...

I totally agree. Great discussion and everyone has good points in there statements and I think all the info together is good info. Sigh good ole car talk.

[78T/A]

Well i do believe there is no replacement for displacement motor wise. I also agree that on the track depending on your class displacement doesn't matter. Now im not talking bout funny car racing. Big as motors do make more power but they don't rev high. Torque is important to a certain extent. Every seen a drag race when the car with more torque gets beat because it gets ran down at the end. Theres a huge difference between street and track racing. I say this because most imports race more than quarter mile.

I.E. look up brent rau. He has a 4g63 4 cylinder rwd with i think 1400 hp and he runs 6s in the quarter mile. Granted hes in a tube frame car john shepherd in his street car runs 7s on the same motor but he is awd. This proves technology makes a big difference in "replacement or displacement". Most big motors have almost more than that amount of hp and they don't run 6s. Some supras make more hp and don't run that time as well as other cars. Matter of fact brent rau had to add weight and drop turbo size because he was too damn fast.

Technology is something not every can grasp the concept of. Ever here "that anyone can build a v8 but it takes skill to build a 4 cyclinder". (Not to offend anyone) All in all i like all cars that are done right. I dont really like mustangs but boosted's car seems pretty damn nice. I love TA's also. But what i can't stand is people who add just intake and exhaust and pick on somebody under there class. If you a ricer don't race cars you know you have no chance against and then make excuses, and muscle guys don't race people slower than you. Race in your class and then talk smack.

Also you can't always transfer technology. Theres a reason some v8 have push rod. Ever seen a import with one. I haven't and if anyone finds one i would like to see it. At one time push rod was new technology but its dumb to put on a 4 cylinder. Most imports came dohc. How long did it take for everyone to adapt to that? Most cars where sohc or suhc. What about vtec, vvt, mivec? Don't see many of these on big motors. Granted there might be some but not many, hence technology can not be simply put what you do to a smaller engine can be done to big engine and make more power. It all comes down to how the motor is design because each one is different.

Agreed... well put.. i have heard of a vtec v6 though... but most people dont even understand what vtec is...Variable valve timing...

[98dsm]

Hope all you guys come out to the columbus coffee tomorrow.

[Filthy Dub]

I wish I could, leaving shortly to HS all weekend :( But I wish VW would bring over the TFSI engine, its supercharged and turbocharged 1.6l I hear its amazing...

[drewyoutoo]

Interesting read. As far as the no replacement for displacement argument, it's old as moses and twice as boring. Power to weight is the final answer for that argument. When gas was plentiful (cheap, same difference) it was fine to drive a 450 bhp/ 400 ft lb torque 8 mile to the gallon monster. Before anyone gets offended I'm not baggin on anyones choice of vehicle, just trying to state an opinion. I love old muscle. I've had a mustang w/ a 351, a Volare w/ a 318, and Cutlass w/ a 350. I started driving imports in the 80's (81 tercel, another 81 tercel, 90 CRX, 94 Del Sol) largely because of gas prices. Also, I've got to say that as far as general maintenance is concerned (this of course does NOT include mods) I'm sure I don't have to tell you who the winner there has been. I think that the real winner in the power war is the power-plant least mentioned in this discussion. The electric engine is FAR more powerful than any of it's predecessors in terms of deliverable torque. Too bad our government's collusion with the auto and oil industries (damn lobbyists, they're criminal I tell you) has prevented us from seeing any application that would benefit the general population. It would be a beautiful thing to unplug the ride, drive it to the track, then lay down a nasty 6 second quarter....with ZERO displacement.